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	<title>Comments on: Tax Brackets Are Unethical</title>
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	<description>How to Quit Your Job and Start Your Own Business</description>
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		<title>By: vincent</title>
		<link>http://www.startbreakingfree.com/664/tax-brackets-are-unethical/comment-page-1/#comment-5394</link>
		<dc:creator>vincent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2010 12:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.startbreakingfree.com/?p=664#comment-5394</guid>
		<description>Hi. Im not from usa I live in UK. Although I come from a working class background, I am a young man who still has aspirations to better myself. I think that a lot of money that gets paid in welfare as its called in usa or what we call benefits is wasted on people that dont want to work. They get more money for having more children subsidised by taxpayers. I commonly see people of my age 24 with 3 or 4 young ones living on welfare having never had a job. if there was no welfare wouldnt the government be forced to find work for them. Also, the fact that the minimum wage is very low in the uk means that poorer people are actually better off on benefits than they are working. Is this the case in some parts of America?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi. Im not from usa I live in UK. Although I come from a working class background, I am a young man who still has aspirations to better myself. I think that a lot of money that gets paid in welfare as its called in usa or what we call benefits is wasted on people that dont want to work. They get more money for having more children subsidised by taxpayers. I commonly see people of my age 24 with 3 or 4 young ones living on welfare having never had a job. if there was no welfare wouldnt the government be forced to find work for them. Also, the fact that the minimum wage is very low in the uk means that poorer people are actually better off on benefits than they are working. Is this the case in some parts of America?</p>
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		<title>By: sarah</title>
		<link>http://www.startbreakingfree.com/664/tax-brackets-are-unethical/comment-page-1/#comment-1381</link>
		<dc:creator>sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.startbreakingfree.com/?p=664#comment-1381</guid>
		<description>They&#039;re not for profit organizations. If we repealed their tax exempt status, then to be &quot;fair&quot; we&#039;d need to repeal all not for profit organizations tax exempt status. This would result in a smaller percentage of the donations actually being put to good use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They&#8217;re not for profit organizations. If we repealed their tax exempt status, then to be &#8220;fair&#8221; we&#8217;d need to repeal all not for profit organizations tax exempt status. This would result in a smaller percentage of the donations actually being put to good use.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.startbreakingfree.com/664/tax-brackets-are-unethical/comment-page-1/#comment-1380</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 23:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.startbreakingfree.com/?p=664#comment-1380</guid>
		<description>True...i guess if you want to make the immoral argument, you could argue the baseline $30k or so (as someone mentioned above) would be tax free.  But you certainly couldn&#039;t justify tax brackets from this.  This would at least be a step in the right direction I suppose although I&#039;m still not quite sure I&#039;d buy it.

It scares me when the government starts to make judgment calls like that about what&#039;s poor and that&#039;s essential, etc.  It should just be simple and basic percentage if you want to be a law abiding tax payer living in the US.  In a practical sense you make a good point as well that if people have to choose between food or paying the tax, they will choose food and become law breakers.  But that&#039;s fine and is basically how it works now too...if you don&#039;t pay taxes but are so poor as to not be worth auditing by the IRS then you just fly under the radar.  This is fine...but ultimately people have an incentive to become real taxpayers if they ever want to get loans or buy a house, etc.  So the system still works.

The cigarette tax is a &quot;sin tax&quot;...equally ridiculous for the government to try and legislate morality.  They don&#039;t have any business telling you how to spend your own money, as long as you aren&#039;t hurting anyone else.

Anyway, I&#039;m certainly not suggesting we eliminate taxation.  We need a government.  But really only for about 3 things: protect the border from invasion (military), keep the peace (police), protect property rights (courts).  By the way, environmental issues would fall under property rights.  There are a few others which I think we could make a case for, but probably about 80% of the government is unnecessary.  By eliminating the rest of the government we could get away with probably a 10% tax rate or less.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True&#8230;i guess if you want to make the immoral argument, you could argue the baseline $30k or so (as someone mentioned above) would be tax free.  But you certainly couldn&#8217;t justify tax brackets from this.  This would at least be a step in the right direction I suppose although I&#8217;m still not quite sure I&#8217;d buy it.</p>
<p>It scares me when the government starts to make judgment calls like that about what&#8217;s poor and that&#8217;s essential, etc.  It should just be simple and basic percentage if you want to be a law abiding tax payer living in the US.  In a practical sense you make a good point as well that if people have to choose between food or paying the tax, they will choose food and become law breakers.  But that&#8217;s fine and is basically how it works now too&#8230;if you don&#8217;t pay taxes but are so poor as to not be worth auditing by the IRS then you just fly under the radar.  This is fine&#8230;but ultimately people have an incentive to become real taxpayers if they ever want to get loans or buy a house, etc.  So the system still works.</p>
<p>The cigarette tax is a &#8220;sin tax&#8221;&#8230;equally ridiculous for the government to try and legislate morality.  They don&#8217;t have any business telling you how to spend your own money, as long as you aren&#8217;t hurting anyone else.</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;m certainly not suggesting we eliminate taxation.  We need a government.  But really only for about 3 things: protect the border from invasion (military), keep the peace (police), protect property rights (courts).  By the way, environmental issues would fall under property rights.  There are a few others which I think we could make a case for, but probably about 80% of the government is unnecessary.  By eliminating the rest of the government we could get away with probably a 10% tax rate or less.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Armstrong</title>
		<link>http://www.startbreakingfree.com/664/tax-brackets-are-unethical/comment-page-1/#comment-1379</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Armstrong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 22:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.startbreakingfree.com/?p=664#comment-1379</guid>
		<description>Steve you&#039;re absolutely right on that.

Glenn, regarding the &quot;flow of money in the system slows and the functioning of the economy is impaired&quot;, I&#039;d challenge you to find a single piece of evidence to back that up (done by an economist).

It&#039;s actually the exact opposite.  Successful entrepreneurs are one of the most important drivers of the economy.  They are highly compensated because they took huge risks (where 99% of people failed) to create new products and services which offer value to the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve you&#8217;re absolutely right on that.</p>
<p>Glenn, regarding the &#8220;flow of money in the system slows and the functioning of the economy is impaired&#8221;, I&#8217;d challenge you to find a single piece of evidence to back that up (done by an economist).</p>
<p>It&#8217;s actually the exact opposite.  Successful entrepreneurs are one of the most important drivers of the economy.  They are highly compensated because they took huge risks (where 99% of people failed) to create new products and services which offer value to the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve1776</title>
		<link>http://www.startbreakingfree.com/664/tax-brackets-are-unethical/comment-page-1/#comment-1369</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve1776</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 05:53:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.startbreakingfree.com/?p=664#comment-1369</guid>
		<description>The trouble with having a higher tax on those who make a &quot;lot&quot; of money is who decides who makes a lot of money. When the income tax was started it was a very low tax (I believe it was 1%) on the wealthiest (top 1% or 2%). Guess who is considered wealthy now?

With a consumption or transaction tax Warren Buffet would pay a tax on everything that he spends. And sooner or later he (or his heirs) will spend every dime he has made. With a  flat tax or a progressive tax the money is not collected until it is considered income. As long as Buffet keeps moving it around in the stock market and keeps it from being declared income there is no tax. With a transaction tax there would be money collected on every trade, unlike today where you can declare a loss and not pay any tax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The trouble with having a higher tax on those who make a &#8220;lot&#8221; of money is who decides who makes a lot of money. When the income tax was started it was a very low tax (I believe it was 1%) on the wealthiest (top 1% or 2%). Guess who is considered wealthy now?</p>
<p>With a consumption or transaction tax Warren Buffet would pay a tax on everything that he spends. And sooner or later he (or his heirs) will spend every dime he has made. With a  flat tax or a progressive tax the money is not collected until it is considered income. As long as Buffet keeps moving it around in the stock market and keeps it from being declared income there is no tax. With a transaction tax there would be money collected on every trade, unlike today where you can declare a loss and not pay any tax.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.startbreakingfree.com/664/tax-brackets-are-unethical/comment-page-1/#comment-1378</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 05:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.startbreakingfree.com/?p=664#comment-1378</guid>
		<description>Brian,
Interesting post. I appreciate (as per your comments) viewing both perspectives.

If I&#039;m not mistaken, I think they call the current tax system a &quot;Progressive Tax System&quot; where those that make more money are taxed more. However, like you said, a simple flat percentage works the same way. Therefore, I think the same &quot;Progressive Tax&quot; should apply for a fixed percentage. It actually might, I&#039;m not sure.

As per your argument on having a fixed percentage tax...I do see the merit in the argument, however I feel like the extremely wealthy (like Warren Buffet, as Kevin pointed out) can afford to pay a higher tax bracket. A professor of mine told me a story about a hedge fund manager who had made $300 million dollars and was taxed $100 million of it. My professor was against it, but I felt as if, well if he still has $200 million, he can certainly afford a $100 million tax.

So I can&#039;t say I entirely disagree with your idea of a flat percentage, but I believe that in at least some extreme circumstances, certain individuals with a LOT of money can afford the high tax bracket anyway, and it certainly wont seem that punitive. After all, the $100 million in tax wont seem to be nearly as much to the individual netting $200m in take-home pay as $10k in tax would be to someone netting $20k.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian,<br />
Interesting post. I appreciate (as per your comments) viewing both perspectives.</p>
<p>If I&#8217;m not mistaken, I think they call the current tax system a &#8220;Progressive Tax System&#8221; where those that make more money are taxed more. However, like you said, a simple flat percentage works the same way. Therefore, I think the same &#8220;Progressive Tax&#8221; should apply for a fixed percentage. It actually might, I&#8217;m not sure.</p>
<p>As per your argument on having a fixed percentage tax&#8230;I do see the merit in the argument, however I feel like the extremely wealthy (like Warren Buffet, as Kevin pointed out) can afford to pay a higher tax bracket. A professor of mine told me a story about a hedge fund manager who had made $300 million dollars and was taxed $100 million of it. My professor was against it, but I felt as if, well if he still has $200 million, he can certainly afford a $100 million tax.</p>
<p>So I can&#8217;t say I entirely disagree with your idea of a flat percentage, but I believe that in at least some extreme circumstances, certain individuals with a LOT of money can afford the high tax bracket anyway, and it certainly wont seem that punitive. After all, the $100 million in tax wont seem to be nearly as much to the individual netting $200m in take-home pay as $10k in tax would be to someone netting $20k.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob H</title>
		<link>http://www.startbreakingfree.com/664/tax-brackets-are-unethical/comment-page-1/#comment-1377</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 15:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.startbreakingfree.com/?p=664#comment-1377</guid>
		<description>&lt;&lt;&gt;&gt;

In the case of cigarettes, maybe they want us to quit smoking but I have a different spin:

The government sees taxes on cigarettes as an unlimited source of revenue just as they do with gasoline, alcohol, phone usage (they are kind enough to label the tax a &#039;surcharge&#039; or &#039;usage fee&#039;)and sales tax on cars, etc. They seem to have forgotten that a 10% additional tax placed on luxury boats valued at over $100,000 killed that industry.

Sales on new cars are down 25% or more. We are consuming less gasoline. Oops...where&#039;s that revenue going to come from?

All of us. Even if income tax for low wage earners goes to zero they will pay more taxes elsewhere. They just won&#039;t realize it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&lt;&lt;&gt;&gt;</p>
<p>In the case of cigarettes, maybe they want us to quit smoking but I have a different spin:</p>
<p>The government sees taxes on cigarettes as an unlimited source of revenue just as they do with gasoline, alcohol, phone usage (they are kind enough to label the tax a &#8216;surcharge&#8217; or &#8216;usage fee&#8217;)and sales tax on cars, etc. They seem to have forgotten that a 10% additional tax placed on luxury boats valued at over $100,000 killed that industry.</p>
<p>Sales on new cars are down 25% or more. We are consuming less gasoline. Oops&#8230;where&#8217;s that revenue going to come from?</p>
<p>All of us. Even if income tax for low wage earners goes to zero they will pay more taxes elsewhere. They just won&#8217;t realize it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://www.startbreakingfree.com/664/tax-brackets-are-unethical/comment-page-1/#comment-1376</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 02:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.startbreakingfree.com/?p=664#comment-1376</guid>
		<description>Why if we repeal the tax exemption for religious organizations?  Make them pay taxes at the same rate that businesses pay?  They are required to pay property taxes and income taxes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why if we repeal the tax exemption for religious organizations?  Make them pay taxes at the same rate that businesses pay?  They are required to pay property taxes and income taxes.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve1776</title>
		<link>http://www.startbreakingfree.com/664/tax-brackets-are-unethical/comment-page-1/#comment-1375</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve1776</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 02:12:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.startbreakingfree.com/?p=664#comment-1375</guid>
		<description>The government uses taxes to influence behavior. If they want you do more of something (buy a house) they give you a deduction for doing it (mortgage deduction). If the don&#039;t want you to do something they raise taxes on it (cigarettes).


If I was Cesar this would be my tax plan:

a) Corporate tax rate of zero. This would make the U.S. the tax haven of the world for business. No more unemployment since there would be more jobs than you can count.

b) A 2% transaction tax. A transaction is any time money exchanges hands for any reason. This would be payed by both the buyer and the seller for a total of 4% on all transactions, no exceptions. The feds get 1%, the state gets 2%, the city and county split the remaining 1%. All other taxes except the tax on gasoline are eliminated. The gas tax would be capped at 1% for a total tax of 5%. The gas tax can only be spent on highways (Concrete, asphalt, and steal. If the state wants to landscape the road they can pay for it out of their 2%.)

c) The U.S. congress can only fund and authorize money to be spent on items authorized by the constitution. All appropriations bills MUST state the section of the constitution that give the government the authority to fund that program (want to fund public radio, show me the section of the constitution that authorizes the government to be in the entertainment business and to use taxpayer money to compete against private businesses that are doing the same thing).

d) If you are receiving government assistance (not retirement or social security) or if you have received government assistance in the past 12 months you forfeit your right to vote (if you don&#039;t feed the horses you don&#039;t get to guide the wagon). If it has been over 12 months since you&#039;ve received government assistance you are eligible to vote. Rome fell because the people found out they could vote themselves &quot;bread and circuses&quot;. I believe we are close to doing the same thing since the taxpayers are barely above the 50% level of the population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The government uses taxes to influence behavior. If they want you do more of something (buy a house) they give you a deduction for doing it (mortgage deduction). If the don&#8217;t want you to do something they raise taxes on it (cigarettes).</p>
<p>If I was Cesar this would be my tax plan:</p>
<p>a) Corporate tax rate of zero. This would make the U.S. the tax haven of the world for business. No more unemployment since there would be more jobs than you can count.</p>
<p>b) A 2% transaction tax. A transaction is any time money exchanges hands for any reason. This would be payed by both the buyer and the seller for a total of 4% on all transactions, no exceptions. The feds get 1%, the state gets 2%, the city and county split the remaining 1%. All other taxes except the tax on gasoline are eliminated. The gas tax would be capped at 1% for a total tax of 5%. The gas tax can only be spent on highways (Concrete, asphalt, and steal. If the state wants to landscape the road they can pay for it out of their 2%.)</p>
<p>c) The U.S. congress can only fund and authorize money to be spent on items authorized by the constitution. All appropriations bills MUST state the section of the constitution that give the government the authority to fund that program (want to fund public radio, show me the section of the constitution that authorizes the government to be in the entertainment business and to use taxpayer money to compete against private businesses that are doing the same thing).</p>
<p>d) If you are receiving government assistance (not retirement or social security) or if you have received government assistance in the past 12 months you forfeit your right to vote (if you don&#8217;t feed the horses you don&#8217;t get to guide the wagon). If it has been over 12 months since you&#8217;ve received government assistance you are eligible to vote. Rome fell because the people found out they could vote themselves &#8220;bread and circuses&#8221;. I believe we are close to doing the same thing since the taxpayers are barely above the 50% level of the population.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve1776</title>
		<link>http://www.startbreakingfree.com/664/tax-brackets-are-unethical/comment-page-1/#comment-1374</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve1776</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Dec 2008 01:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.startbreakingfree.com/?p=664#comment-1374</guid>
		<description>&quot;Their mindset is this is “THEIR” money and they don’t owe anybody any of it. Actually, they have extracted a disproportionally large amount from the economic system in which they live and participate and this money cannot just be “kept” if the system is to remain healthy and functional. A significant portion of it must be returned to the system or else the flow of money in the system slows and the functioning of the economy is impaired.&quot;

The rich don&#039;t &quot;keep&quot; their (and yes it is THEIR money). Take Bill Gates. Thousands of people have jobs designing, building, shipping, selling, and repairing computers and computer systems because of what he did. He has done more to help raise the standard of living and to cotribute to the economic system than Ted Kennedy (or any career politician) has. If anyone owes more to society it is the leaches who have lived on the public tit all their life (carrier politicians are at the head of that line).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Their mindset is this is “THEIR” money and they don’t owe anybody any of it. Actually, they have extracted a disproportionally large amount from the economic system in which they live and participate and this money cannot just be “kept” if the system is to remain healthy and functional. A significant portion of it must be returned to the system or else the flow of money in the system slows and the functioning of the economy is impaired.&#8221;</p>
<p>The rich don&#8217;t &#8220;keep&#8221; their (and yes it is THEIR money). Take Bill Gates. Thousands of people have jobs designing, building, shipping, selling, and repairing computers and computer systems because of what he did. He has done more to help raise the standard of living and to cotribute to the economic system than Ted Kennedy (or any career politician) has. If anyone owes more to society it is the leaches who have lived on the public tit all their life (carrier politicians are at the head of that line).</p>
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